JustinMcGee1
I like Hondas
the previous owner put shit pads on my car. They make a ton of dust but I feel like it would be a waste to replace them with them being only half worn
EBC vs Stoptech
- Thread starter droz
- Start date
MrGurley
************5-0
your wrong.
JustinMcGee1
I like Hondas
I should replace them?
Nick_C78
New Member
I disagree strongly. Rear pads on hondas are very insignificant. Well thats not true. they are important, because if you use the wrong pads it can hurt your braking performance and become dangerous. However, I know soooo many super fast track guys who use autozone rears with carbotech/cobalt fronts. Use some logic, why would you want matching pad compounds front and rear? Fronts heat up a hell of a lot more than the rears. Thus using a pad compound that is for your/desired heat range is best. And logically the fronts and rears will have a very different temperature. Meaning you will be using different pad compounds.
Oh and he doesn't need an HP+ or equivalent pad for a daily driver. Again, this goes back to using pads that are of the correct heat range. An OEM pad will work better on the street than the best performance pad. People fail to realize that and often buy "better" pads thinking it will make them stop better, when it in fact makes it worse.
MrGurley
************5-0
that's a pretty legit statement, thus im such a fan of ebc, they make pads, again just in my experience green to yellow, that do great from normal street driving, to pretty unnecessary street driving the dragon etc... and my experience is green fronts and rears or yellow fronts and green rears for the more aggressive driving. just throwing that on top of my 2 cents
speedin
The Transporter
This knowledge is coming straight out of the mouth of AP Racing's head of engineering. I held a meeting with him a year and a half ago discussing a brake design. I spoke with him explicitly about this topic and he very nearly bit my head off haha. Just because you " know soooo many super fast track guys" doing it doesnt mean its right. Rear pads are very important, if you do what you suggest you can create a imbalance between the front and rear as the pad material changes temperature. Balance between the front and rear of the car plays into much more than you are factoring. And the designers at Honda know much more about the Integra's design than you, I or the "super fast track guys." They maintained a certain front to rear balance when designing the car that was a variable of every main design aspect of the car. As the front and rears heat up at different rates and change their effective µ they will do so on very different curves. That means you have a nearly unpredictable bias ratio every time you hit the brakes and throughout application. A good driver needs absolute confidence in their brakes, that means predictability, that means brakes that wont destabilize the car due to a front to rear bias all over the map throughout the temperature range. What you are doing is shifting bias and work to the front, the engineers have already done this through rotor, caliper, master, and prop valve design. The rears are doing work, and they will change µ much differently than the fronts will. This really messes with bias even more than when they were cool. Its just not a good idea. Believe what you want, I will believe the math, and science behind it. The choice is yours.
As for what pad to run, it depends on duty. OP never stated every little thing he does with his cars. I will say that PBR's on the street work fantastic, overkill for a DD yes. But when you are on a downhill switchback you will praise them. The same cannot be said for being left with fading HPS's. Now everyone's duty is different, but given the street characteristics and high fade resistance I will take the PBR's.
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Nick_C78
New Member
That is a cute bit of information. Am I suppose to know or even give a damn about that engineer? That doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about, even if he is "smarter" than me. I know a lot of stupid engineers, I mean I do go to Cal Poly Pomona for engineering in fact and trust me, I have met some morons that have made it far in life. Not saying he is stupid, but don't pull out the word engineer and expect me to just take your word for it. I am not that naive, sir. Especially when I have first hand experience on said topic, you just have paper. I agree honda did their research and did a decent job at sorting out the bias issue. However, temperature readings still show that our fronts heat way faster and get way hotter than the rears. So you think you should use a pad on the rears, that is rated for the temperatures that only the fronts get in to? Oh and if honda did everything perfectly, we wouldn't be modding our cars, lets not forget that. They have legal rules to follow as well, which hinder performance. Lets also not forget that we change a lot on these cars which effects the stock brake system, like wheel size, tire compound, horse power, ride height, spring rates, weight, shall I go on? And you can downplay me and the guys that I know, but explain to me why it works better than matching compounds? And what are our thoughts on the temperature readings still being really far off? It is no secret that even with all the changes honda made to compensate, that the fronts simply work much much harder. And you are making them work even harder when you put a rear pad on that isn't in its operating temperature.
That is the point I am trying to make. You can try to sound smart and provide no actual math, simply the theory behind why the "math" works. Point is that the rears won't get as hot as the front, bottom line. So why the hell would you use a rear pad that is for the operating temperature of the fronts. Shall I keep repeating myself or are you going to pull up some more "math". Better yet, go try your theory on a track and then go try mine. I know plenty of people who matched compounds who quickly learned that it wasn't the way to go.
Sorry if I come off as a dick, but I hate when people say things like "An engineer said..." and expect me to take their word for it. Especially when first hand experience says otherwise. Logically it makes more sense to have pads for the correct temperature rating vs matching compounds.
That is the point I am trying to make. You can try to sound smart and provide no actual math, simply the theory behind why the "math" works. Point is that the rears won't get as hot as the front, bottom line. So why the hell would you use a rear pad that is for the operating temperature of the fronts. Shall I keep repeating myself or are you going to pull up some more "math". Better yet, go try your theory on a track and then go try mine. I know plenty of people who matched compounds who quickly learned that it wasn't the way to go.
Sorry if I come off as a dick, but I hate when people say things like "An engineer said..." and expect me to take their word for it. Especially when first hand experience says otherwise. Logically it makes more sense to have pads for the correct temperature rating vs matching compounds.
Nick_C78
New Member
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1779328-Forced-Induction-BRAKE-COOLING-thread-%28products-projects-custom-and-beyond%29&p=23593024#post23593024
Post #19 has some good information.
"For some people and cars this is 75% the correct answer. Now saying just run whatever in the rear because they do nothing anyways is wrong. If you upgrade the fronts to race pads do the same to the rear but pick a less aggressive race pad like the PFC06's in your case. Not as much bite and just a tad less aggressive but won't over temp like a street pad. But again depending on your driving style maybe running 01's in the rear are better for you."
That if for a RWD BMW though. He is just saying don't use OEM, because they will be over heated. Which I agree, don't use a pad that is below the heat range either. That is much worse. This goes back to using the correct heat range pad for the front and the rear.
I have researched a lot on brake pads. And I have found lots of professional racers and racing series for that matter that mix compounds.
Looking forward to your next bit of information Speedin. I am open to learning new things, but you are going to need to do more than tell me what your engineer guy said... I look forward to being proven wrong actually, because all of my research has agreed with what I am saying, which again, in case anybody missed it, is to get the correct compound for each, which may or may not be matching.
As for the OP, sorry man. I can't help but rant some times. Hopefully some good information will come out of this.
Post #19 has some good information.
"For some people and cars this is 75% the correct answer. Now saying just run whatever in the rear because they do nothing anyways is wrong. If you upgrade the fronts to race pads do the same to the rear but pick a less aggressive race pad like the PFC06's in your case. Not as much bite and just a tad less aggressive but won't over temp like a street pad. But again depending on your driving style maybe running 01's in the rear are better for you."
That if for a RWD BMW though. He is just saying don't use OEM, because they will be over heated. Which I agree, don't use a pad that is below the heat range either. That is much worse. This goes back to using the correct heat range pad for the front and the rear.
I have researched a lot on brake pads. And I have found lots of professional racers and racing series for that matter that mix compounds.
Looking forward to your next bit of information Speedin. I am open to learning new things, but you are going to need to do more than tell me what your engineer guy said... I look forward to being proven wrong actually, because all of my research has agreed with what I am saying, which again, in case anybody missed it, is to get the correct compound for each, which may or may not be matching.
As for the OP, sorry man. I can't help but rant some times. Hopefully some good information will come out of this.
speedin
The Transporter
Ok, so bit of a break here. Let see if we cant educate each other a bit. I will start of by saying I am not trying to be a dick about this either. These types of conversations are usually good for both sides.
Having said that i'll start with the Engineer topic. Yes I too know plenty of dumb engineers, I also know many brilliant ones. The term Engineer still does mean something, and holds a real value in these topics. However I will evaluate on m source. I had a meeting with Mike O'Neil (US Engineering for AP) and Richard Bass (AP Racing's Chief Engineer) where they had a presentation on brake design. Now AP Racing is world renown for designing racing brake systems from the ground up. They design systems for F1, WRC, Le-Mons, etc. Basically when it comes to racing brakes they are the top. So yes, when I am lectured by these people on brake design I listen.
Now this lecture was not for s***s and giggles, as I said, I was in the midst of designing a brake system. So it was not just theory and math experience on my end. In my time as the Brake and Controls Engineer on our Formula SAE team my brake system always received the highest design points of an category, and our team went from 43rd to 14th in an international competition of over 120. But as an Engineer who loves cars I am sure you know all about FSAE so ill stop there. Thats just one example of my practical knowledge on this subject. Some FSAE car porn if you wish to stop reading for a second https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p206x206/426868_10150597718338195_211262088_n.jpg And one more because that was my favorite car https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430447_10150599831818195_470139188_n.jpg
Next point, do front heat up faster than the rears. Of course they do, id never argue against that. But that does not mean a normal pad on the rear is a good idea. Now are there some race pads designed to be a mix compound front to rear, yes. But they are designed that way from the start and we are not talking about those pads here. Those pads are pure race pads, and even then its the equivalent of a jb-weld fix. If you want to adjust brake bias front or rear it should be done so through proper practices, such as caliper/piston size, master cylinder size, prop valve, or a bias adjuster. Using pads is a rigged fix and ill explain why.
Its all about the difference in the friction coefficient (µ), if the front and rears are the same the bias is preserved. If the front and rear are only slightly different (HP+ front, PBR rear) then the bias shift is very small and most often a difference is not seen. However if a large difference exists (HP+ front, OEM rear as an example) then what happens is the rears will actually overheat before the fronts and cause the rear to want to rotate under braking. This then suddenly puts more the work onto the front which can cause even further overheating up front.
Pads have an operating range, most pads people on here use dont need to be noticeably warmed up. By that I mean even the HP+'s operating range is 250-1000. And 250 is a low operational temp. They also circumvent that by using additives that increase initial bite before the temp enters the range. So the effective µ, for even a sportier pad like the HP+, is available almost immediately. The reason I mention this is you are saying it is better to have a weaker pad out back because of the lower temps. Well you see the ranges are so large that even with the lower temps out back a sportier pad will still deliver its proper µ, matching µ front to rear and preserving bias, balance, and predictability.
So for the pads we are talking about the lower end of the range comes down even more, another example is the Carbotech AX6 with a range of 50°F to 1100°F. In other words the rears will be in operational range on a cold day not even being used. So this pad and the Duralast Gold CMAX pads (the ones you run) are the ones I chose to run the calculations on. I ran a program where I inputted a number of variables, to ease of calculation the variables I used were; 3000lb car, Ambient temp of 80*F, I used a standard 2 piston (57mm pistons) front and a 1 piston rear (33mm), used a 9.4" rear rotor, 10.3" front rotor, 1” master cylinder, a CG of 20", 101.2 in wheelbase, and a 64/36 F/R weight bias. Here is what I got out…
Now the operating range for the Duralasts are 100-700*F and the AX6 is 50-1100*F. I ran it three ways, for an at speed application time of 16 seconds (now once they pass operating range of the pads the results wont be valid for this test, but after the operating range we don’t care). The horizontal purple lines indicate the AX6 range, while the gold lines show the Duralast range. The solid lines are fronts and dotted are rears. The goal here is to have the fronts fall off before the rear. And this happens for each of the paired pads. But what happens when you put AX6 fronts and CMax rears on is the Cmax’s start to heat up and fall off, but they end up transferring the job to the front of the car (which can still handle it, but just heats up faster). Now this becomes a real issue as the rear pads get to there max operating temp and the AX6’s still have plenty of life left. What you end up with is a loss of rear pad at about 9 seconds. What this does is causes the fronts to do all the work. As a result instead of lasting 13-14 seconds under full load with matched AX6’s the combo pair fades off at a mere 10 seconds.
I am sure I missed something, but I have some less interesting stuff to do now. So maybe ill get back at what I missed later. Again just trying to be informative with the information I have. BTW, you didn’t come off totally great in that reply.
Having said that i'll start with the Engineer topic. Yes I too know plenty of dumb engineers, I also know many brilliant ones. The term Engineer still does mean something, and holds a real value in these topics. However I will evaluate on m source. I had a meeting with Mike O'Neil (US Engineering for AP) and Richard Bass (AP Racing's Chief Engineer) where they had a presentation on brake design. Now AP Racing is world renown for designing racing brake systems from the ground up. They design systems for F1, WRC, Le-Mons, etc. Basically when it comes to racing brakes they are the top. So yes, when I am lectured by these people on brake design I listen.
Now this lecture was not for s***s and giggles, as I said, I was in the midst of designing a brake system. So it was not just theory and math experience on my end. In my time as the Brake and Controls Engineer on our Formula SAE team my brake system always received the highest design points of an category, and our team went from 43rd to 14th in an international competition of over 120. But as an Engineer who loves cars I am sure you know all about FSAE so ill stop there. Thats just one example of my practical knowledge on this subject. Some FSAE car porn if you wish to stop reading for a second https://sphotos-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/p206x206/426868_10150597718338195_211262088_n.jpg And one more because that was my favorite car https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430447_10150599831818195_470139188_n.jpg
Next point, do front heat up faster than the rears. Of course they do, id never argue against that. But that does not mean a normal pad on the rear is a good idea. Now are there some race pads designed to be a mix compound front to rear, yes. But they are designed that way from the start and we are not talking about those pads here. Those pads are pure race pads, and even then its the equivalent of a jb-weld fix. If you want to adjust brake bias front or rear it should be done so through proper practices, such as caliper/piston size, master cylinder size, prop valve, or a bias adjuster. Using pads is a rigged fix and ill explain why.
Its all about the difference in the friction coefficient (µ), if the front and rears are the same the bias is preserved. If the front and rear are only slightly different (HP+ front, PBR rear) then the bias shift is very small and most often a difference is not seen. However if a large difference exists (HP+ front, OEM rear as an example) then what happens is the rears will actually overheat before the fronts and cause the rear to want to rotate under braking. This then suddenly puts more the work onto the front which can cause even further overheating up front.
Pads have an operating range, most pads people on here use dont need to be noticeably warmed up. By that I mean even the HP+'s operating range is 250-1000. And 250 is a low operational temp. They also circumvent that by using additives that increase initial bite before the temp enters the range. So the effective µ, for even a sportier pad like the HP+, is available almost immediately. The reason I mention this is you are saying it is better to have a weaker pad out back because of the lower temps. Well you see the ranges are so large that even with the lower temps out back a sportier pad will still deliver its proper µ, matching µ front to rear and preserving bias, balance, and predictability.
So for the pads we are talking about the lower end of the range comes down even more, another example is the Carbotech AX6 with a range of 50°F to 1100°F. In other words the rears will be in operational range on a cold day not even being used. So this pad and the Duralast Gold CMAX pads (the ones you run) are the ones I chose to run the calculations on. I ran a program where I inputted a number of variables, to ease of calculation the variables I used were; 3000lb car, Ambient temp of 80*F, I used a standard 2 piston (57mm pistons) front and a 1 piston rear (33mm), used a 9.4" rear rotor, 10.3" front rotor, 1” master cylinder, a CG of 20", 101.2 in wheelbase, and a 64/36 F/R weight bias. Here is what I got out…
Now the operating range for the Duralasts are 100-700*F and the AX6 is 50-1100*F. I ran it three ways, for an at speed application time of 16 seconds (now once they pass operating range of the pads the results wont be valid for this test, but after the operating range we don’t care). The horizontal purple lines indicate the AX6 range, while the gold lines show the Duralast range. The solid lines are fronts and dotted are rears. The goal here is to have the fronts fall off before the rear. And this happens for each of the paired pads. But what happens when you put AX6 fronts and CMax rears on is the Cmax’s start to heat up and fall off, but they end up transferring the job to the front of the car (which can still handle it, but just heats up faster). Now this becomes a real issue as the rear pads get to there max operating temp and the AX6’s still have plenty of life left. What you end up with is a loss of rear pad at about 9 seconds. What this does is causes the fronts to do all the work. As a result instead of lasting 13-14 seconds under full load with matched AX6’s the combo pair fades off at a mere 10 seconds.
I am sure I missed something, but I have some less interesting stuff to do now. So maybe ill get back at what I missed later. Again just trying to be informative with the information I have. BTW, you didn’t come off totally great in that reply.
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droz
New Member
all the feedback has been awesome so far and definitely a great read, always nice learning new stuff
as for what I do with the car, its purely a street car and will likely never see the track, probably 20% of my driving is highway and the rest is stop and go, back roads with lots if twists, turns and hills, just fun stuff to enjoy driving the car
as for what I do with the car, its purely a street car and will likely never see the track, probably 20% of my driving is highway and the rest is stop and go, back roads with lots if twists, turns and hills, just fun stuff to enjoy driving the car
Nick_C78
New Member
Funny that it got brought up. I was going to mention last night about pads that have a super large range operating temperature. Those do kind of take the cake on any option. I still have found that people still choose a rear pad that has less bite than the rear. Maybe that just suits their driving style more, but even for me it makes for a more stable braking to have it mixed. Oh and I use HP+ front and Monroe Ceramics rear. Not that it makes much of a difference, since monroe ceramics and duralast gold are very similar. I will obviously still try different combinations though, not just base everything on what others use. Every set up and driving style is going to want a different pad set up.
I love that graph. I mean I would have probably put in a more honda based set up for the weight, but I suppose a stock integra with a heavy driver, full tank and passenger can easily be 3000. Numbers do speak for themselves. You as well as I also know that just because a pad has a large operating range doesn't mean that it has even performance throughout the range. It will have a peak somewhere(or even multiple peaks for some pads). The goal is to be as close as you can to said peak without going over it. That is what the ideal should be, but not always the case. I also agree that pad technology is greatly decreasing my theory as well. Better and better pads do indeed keep coming out and even a set up that was ideal 10 years ago is complete s*** today. The mixing of pad compounds to allow both cold bite and also not fade in higher temps does make pad choice easy.
The problem I have found on track hondas, which isn't really the case for this guys thread, but still pertains to our topic, is that the rears lock up really easy. This is because of us making our cars stupid light and upsetting the balance of the car. When you match pad compounds, it just makes the rears lock up even easier. You are right about it being a JB Weld/Duct tape kind of fix, but it also works. Now, I agree that changing the bias and hydraulics is the more ideal way to go, but also not practical for most of us. Especially with the limited brake choices we can really run, while staying in the 15" wheel game(Better tire choices and cheaper).
Thanks for taking the time to argue with me though. I feel like it is a good learning experience for most who will read. Even for myself. As for coming off totally great in my reply, meh. I don't really care how I come off on the internets. I try to help people when I can and give my opinions and advice where applicable. It isn't always sound advice and I am not always nice about how I word it, but thats just how it goes some times.
I love that graph. I mean I would have probably put in a more honda based set up for the weight, but I suppose a stock integra with a heavy driver, full tank and passenger can easily be 3000. Numbers do speak for themselves. You as well as I also know that just because a pad has a large operating range doesn't mean that it has even performance throughout the range. It will have a peak somewhere(or even multiple peaks for some pads). The goal is to be as close as you can to said peak without going over it. That is what the ideal should be, but not always the case. I also agree that pad technology is greatly decreasing my theory as well. Better and better pads do indeed keep coming out and even a set up that was ideal 10 years ago is complete s*** today. The mixing of pad compounds to allow both cold bite and also not fade in higher temps does make pad choice easy.
The problem I have found on track hondas, which isn't really the case for this guys thread, but still pertains to our topic, is that the rears lock up really easy. This is because of us making our cars stupid light and upsetting the balance of the car. When you match pad compounds, it just makes the rears lock up even easier. You are right about it being a JB Weld/Duct tape kind of fix, but it also works. Now, I agree that changing the bias and hydraulics is the more ideal way to go, but also not practical for most of us. Especially with the limited brake choices we can really run, while staying in the 15" wheel game(Better tire choices and cheaper).
Thanks for taking the time to argue with me though. I feel like it is a good learning experience for most who will read. Even for myself. As for coming off totally great in my reply, meh. I don't really care how I come off on the internets. I try to help people when I can and give my opinions and advice where applicable. It isn't always sound advice and I am not always nice about how I word it, but thats just how it goes some times.
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speedin
The Transporter
Yea alot has to do with driving style and what people like. I tend to be a heavier rear bias person, where as when someone else hops in the car they throw that adjuster as far forward as they can. It really changes the car and how it behaves, so it goes along that different people like different things.
Yea the weight was a bit on the high side, I rounded up once I saw the teg's weight with a driver for simplicity. I think I got most of the other parts right. But really that program gives you an idea. I mean it operates in a theoretical vacuum where things like rolling resistance, wind resistance, and engine braking are ignored. And yes there will be some material variation characteristics throughout the range. Im not that good though, cant set up that calculation haha.
Yes, too much rear bite is just as bad as no rear bite at all. And its hard to argue with it working. I have seen split pad on racecars as well, sometimes the bigger teams even use this as a cheap fix when they are in a bad pinch at the track. It really comes down to a "best engineering practices" thing, ive heard that so many damn times when it works, but not to there liking. I think the issue is its not a pre-engineered decision, its post. By that I mean the brakes have been designed, and to modify the system via "best engineering practices" is a real pita. So the pads are the quick and dirty solution.
Thank you as well for the discussion, id say ive walked away from this with a better respect for the pad mixing and a different view on it when it comes to racing purposes. And its hard to convey real attitude over the internet, I may have just read into a line or two too much.
Yea the weight was a bit on the high side, I rounded up once I saw the teg's weight with a driver for simplicity. I think I got most of the other parts right. But really that program gives you an idea. I mean it operates in a theoretical vacuum where things like rolling resistance, wind resistance, and engine braking are ignored. And yes there will be some material variation characteristics throughout the range. Im not that good though, cant set up that calculation haha.
Yes, too much rear bite is just as bad as no rear bite at all. And its hard to argue with it working. I have seen split pad on racecars as well, sometimes the bigger teams even use this as a cheap fix when they are in a bad pinch at the track. It really comes down to a "best engineering practices" thing, ive heard that so many damn times when it works, but not to there liking. I think the issue is its not a pre-engineered decision, its post. By that I mean the brakes have been designed, and to modify the system via "best engineering practices" is a real pita. So the pads are the quick and dirty solution.
Thank you as well for the discussion, id say ive walked away from this with a better respect for the pad mixing and a different view on it when it comes to racing purposes. And its hard to convey real attitude over the internet, I may have just read into a line or two too much.